High Tongue Weight

[TrulyOregon]

Just curious if anyone is concerned about the tongue weight on the HiLos. Our 2207 has the front bed with a foam mattress and topper; (2) 30 pound gas tanks which came with the trailer. Our fresh water tank is always empty. Tongue weight for an empty trailer is 650 pounds, which seems unusually high.
We have considered trading the 30# gas tanks for 20# tanks, but don't know whether that would make a lot of difference.
We tow with a Toyota Tacoma (tow package included), but don't know if that is too much weight on the rear of the truck.
In retrospect wondering now whether towing our 1986 22ft HiLo caused the rear axle to go out on our Mercury station wagon; we were stranded in a Maine Visitor's Center for several days, while our car was being repaired. Not the best of camping memories.
Carol

 

[gus-HILO]

mine is somewhere close to 700lb, we also don't fill our fresh water tank and I have (2) 30lb tanks, what kind of mercury station wagon did you have ?

 

[PopRichie77]

TrulyOregon------That is a heavy tongue weight. Are you using a Weight Distribution Hitch?
Someone else on the forum had the single axle on a 17' moved forward to reduce the tongue weight. Tongue weight should be between 10 to 15% of the total trailer weight for safe towing, this is a standard rule for trailer towing.

 

[TrulyOregon]

Rich: Yes, we are using a weight distributing hitch. We are very aware of tongue weight and have tried to lower it. But I will not sleep on an air mattress. Right now one of our 30 pound tanks weighs 40# and the other 25#.
We suspect that all HiLos must have very high tongue weights.

Gus: I don't know what kind of Mercury Station wagon we had. It was a 1980 model, three seater, fully loaded and had power. step on the gas, and it took off!
It was a gas-guzzling dinosaur.
Carol

 

[retiredcamper47]

What's wrong with an air mattress? We pitched the mattress that came with our HiLo and installed a queen size Aero Bed mattress. Best camping sleep that we have ever had.

Bob

 

[JackandJanet]

It was me that had my trailer axle moved forward. I was just barely under the 600# limit for my WD hitch with the fresh water tank empty and almost no cargo in the trailer (a few pots & pans, clothes, fresh water hose, some plastic leveling blocks, etc.). My trailer's "dry weight" is almost 500# more than spec (measure on a CAT scale). The whole sorry story is in this thread: http://www.hilotrailerforum.com/f26/my-trailer-overloaded-412/

The good news is I just returned from a 3-week, 3500 mile round trip from Tucson to Grand Teton, Yellowstone and Glacier Nation Parks. I had ZERO problems, either with the trailer or the tow vehicle. So, these trailers CAN be made to work properly, if they're not set up right to begin with.

The 10-15% of total weight figure is correct though. Your 22 foot trailer is supposed to have an empty trailer tongue weight of under 500#. It sounds to me like you might have a heavier trailer than spec too.

As far as your Tacoma, the only way to know if you are overloaded is to take the whole assembly to a scale and weigh each axle (including the trailer) with the WD hitch adjusted properly. That way you'll know what the stress is. I'd disconnect the trailer (putting it on the rear scale) and weigh your truck's two axles and the trailer that way too. This will tell you how much additional load you're putting on each truck axle and the total weight of the trailer. You'd like the additional load on each truck axle to be about equal.

- Jack

 

[Fireballsocal]

Tongue weight is a good thing and your tacoma isn't overloaded, as long as you use a properly set up weight distribution hitch. Even without the hitch, your taco is within spec though your steering will be unsafe due to the tongue weight not being distributed properly. Fill your tanks without worry. My 06 tundra has basically the same weight rating as you.

 

[hilltool]

My tongue weight with propane filled and water tank empty is 620. That includes two battery's up there and the Atwood electric tongue jack . It is what it is. My trailer empty is 4000 lbs. hi Los are heavy. I think a lot of manufacturers market light tongue weights because they know folks are looking at that. I don't know that it always means a safe tow, however. I agree that having a proper weight dist set up is crucial but doable. My guess is towing with a mercury station wagon was an iffy endeavor to start with. I would love to be able to tow with my 2002 grand marquis..... But I can't. A 69', maybe. But Not anymore.

 

[RichR]

Your Tacoma should not have any trouble with your HiLo. I had a 2007 Tacoma and it had no problems with our 2310H. If you have a properly matched and adjusted WDH everything should be okay. Dropping to 20# tanks will only eliminate 40# TW at most.

 

[TrulyOregon]

JacknJanet: responses getting a little technical. DH (Frank) will take over now that I posted the question he wanted to solve on his own. Getting answers and suggestions from HiLo owners can't be beat. Thanks, all.
Carol

 

[TrulyOregon]

Thanks, Carol. I've typed this twice and it's been lost twice so this time I'm typing and saving before posting.

We did have an 85 or 86 21' HiLo with swing down bed option. Don't know what it weighed as we didn't have a scale nearby like we do now. We towed it across the country several times, once with our 1980 Mercury Marquis wagon V-8 with the factory tow package. Think the towing capacity was around 5500 or 6000 pounds. Like Carol said, the rear bearings went out and ruined the axle. Had to get a new one; fortunately there was a Ford dealer across from the Maine visitor center. We later towed it with a Chevy Astro Van which also had the towing package and I believe a 6000 tow capacity. The van's transmission had to be replaced twice, under warranty. In both cases I don't know whether any of the TV or trailer weight ratings were exceeded. In fact, other than the tongue weight being checked with the Sherline scale at the time, I don't think we ever checked anything.

So now, with that history and so much information on the internet highway, and two truck scales within a couple miles of us, I've become almost paranoid about the whole weight issue.

We are towing the 2207T with a 2010 Tacoma Sport, 4-door, short bed, V-6 with factory tow package. Weight stats:
GVWR - 5450
GCWR - 11,100
GAWRF - 2755, GAWRR - 3110
Tongue rating - 650
CCC - never exceed 1200 pounds (passengers, cargo, tongue weight)

HiLo weight stats:
GVWR - 5500
GAWR - 3500 each axle
Current tongue weight - 550 (Sherline scale)
CCC is 1249 pounds

So as you see, the combined GVWR of truck and trailer is 10,950 which is below my GCWR. We towed the trailer to the storage yard today and I stopped by the scale to check the weights. Truck weight was 5450, 2400 on front axle and 2950 on the rear. That was with a half tank of gas, two passengers, about 50 pounds of extra cargo, and the tongue weight. I didn't get an accurate trailer weight as a dump truck was waiting for me to move; the scale read 3850 when I drove across but that is lower than the trailer's sticker weight (UVW) of 3912.

So now I know what I can and cannot do. When I weighed the truck by itself several months ago, it came in at 4550 with quarter tank of gas and one passenger. When I returned with the trailer, the weight jumped to 5300 indicating a 750 tongue weight which it was when I checked with the Sherline at home.

I traded my 30 pound propane tanks with my son-in-law for two 20 pound tanks relocated some weight from under the front bed (ours is one of the few 22T models with a full bed up front and storage area under it) to try and lower the tongue weight. Somehow I've managed to do that.

For those following this thread, as you can see it pays to have the weight numbers for your TV and trailer. When I next pull it out of storage I'm going to run it by the scales again with a full tank of gas. With some of my numbers being close to the ratings, it doesn't leave much room before going over the limit. Which makes one wonder as to how many setups out there are within limits. I'm currently thinking of the guy towing what looked to be about a 25' or so trailer with his Ram 2500, doing 70+ MPH on I-5, all the while fish-tailing.

Anyway, check your stickers (driver's door jam for TV; outside left front and inside the door area for trailer) and find a scale. Happy Trails.

 

[JackandJanet]

You might try to shift about 100# from the rear axle to the front using your WD hitch. You're VERY close to the rear axle limit right now and anything you put in the truck bed or near the front of the trailer will increase the loading on that axle, possibly beyond limits.

I tow with an F150 SCrew. Since I have a bed cap on the truck I'm quite close to the axle limits pulling my 1707T (and my truck is rated to pull over a 7000# trailer). I think it is quite easy to overload axles on tow vehicles.

- Jack

 

[hilltool]

E trailer.com says anything behind rear wheels in bed should be counted as tongue weight when calculating weight distribution hitch .Therefore I always put heavier items in front of rear wheels in my f150.

 

[raamw]

When I set up my WD, I measure the front bomber height at some given point, I then hook up the trailer to the vehicle, I once again measure the frt bumper height at the same point, I then adjust the wd to bring the bumper back to close to where the vehicle was empty. Now doing this you need to keep in mind that the tow bars need to be parallel the toungue A frame with the proper amount of free chain to permit steering, if not you need to get the ball mount that has angular adjustments. Also once you get the wd set, it is up to your preference if the wd is set to much or not enough (bucking or lack of traction).
When you tension the weight bars you are taking some of the tonque weight and redistributing it to the trucks frt axle and the trailer, If you are worried about the tongue weight when you scale your vehicle to it with the weight bars off, then reset the bars and weigh again, the difference in the trucks rear weight is close to the tongue weight, with the bars on it will reduce the tongue weight by shifting that weight to other axles. I have seen vehicles towing with wd's and the tow vehicle was dragging its tail with the frt end in the air. You need to know how to set them up and know that you have the proper weight bars, they are made in 400, 600 800 and 1000. each bar will work a few hundred pounds below the max indicated resistance

If you go to reese or any of the other manufacturers web site they will have detailed info on how to set them up.

 

[TrulyOregon]

Great ideas. Thanks for the inputs. I know it's so frustrating to try and stay within all the weight rating limits. It often feels like a game; they lure you with this great combined weight and towing weight limit, but yet the axle, tongue, and payloads become limiting factors that you really have to consider. Then, the dealers and sales people are there to sell and aren't necessarily truthful or well informed about the weight issue. When we bought the HiLo we were towing with our 2009 Highlander which had a 5000 pound towing capacity - higher than what the trailer weighed. We ended that set up after one or two short trips, deciding that to continue towing with it would shorten its lifespan. Ergo, the Tacoma which, unfortunately, is only slightly better.

Anyone know of a way to increase the axle rating or load capability? Will definitely keep the heavy truck bed extras forward of the rear axle.

Frank

 

[raamw]

I towed many years with a F150, my nephew works for ford so we analysized how ford was able to increase the tow capacity of the F350 by several thousand ponds and the only difference we found was a much larger trans cooler and synthetic oil in the differentials. I switched to that set up. You can add rear carrying capacity by coil over shock absorbers or air shocks. Keep in mind the weight rating of the tires, going from a 235 to 255 will increase load capability or to a c or d rated tire. If your truck doesn't have the power you may need to change the gear ratio

 

[JackandJanet]

I don't know that you are totally correct here, raamw. I believe the F250 and F350 have much stronger suspensions than the F150 trucks. I'd also be very surprised if the axles themselves were the same as on the F150s. I think you risk axle (and possibly driveline) damage on a truck if you exceed the max axle weight rating, regardless of heavy duty springs, air shocks and the like.

Now, I'm not a mechanic, so I may be completely wrong in this regard. I'd like to hear from any mechanics here that DO know for sure if all you need are better springs, shocks and tires to increase the axle weight limits.

- Jack

 

[TrulyOregon]

I'm with you on that Jack. I've been trying to learn how I could increase the load capacity (GVWR and GAWR) on a vehicle without replacing the whole backend. You sure can't rely "just" on tow rating or tongue weight or any one of many weight ratings. It's the whole package or nothing.

 

[raamw]

Don't get me wrong, The f250 350 is built heavier than a F150, heavier springs shock axles tire and everything else, what I meant to show that Ford increased the towing capacity of one of its vehicle by increasing the size of its trans cooler and by using synthetic oil in the differential, obviously both changes where to deal with the higher heat that is generated with towing heavier loads.
I did not mean that these changes made to my F150 would put it in the class of the F250/350 only that I stood a better chance of extending the life of my F150 pulling the same old load it did before.
I plan on looking into the tow ability of the new F150 with the eco boost engine which is rated at over 11K since I bought a new expedition with the larger 5.4L engine and identical drive chain and I am only rated at 8900Lbs, granted the eco generates a little more HP and torque.

 

[JackandJanet]

It's all good, raam, I was really trying to work more from the point Frank has been talking about - the axle ratings of the tow vehicles. The trailer weight itself seems to be no factor.

But, let's take your 8900# trailer. Ideally, it should have a tongue weight between 890#-1335#. That's essentially 1/2 ton that the axles are going to have to carry, without factoring in the weight of the driver, passengers, and any additional cargo (which I think could easily reach 500#). So now we're in the 3/4 ton range.

If the F150 ecoboost can PULL 11,000#, it will be supporting 1100-1650# on the axles! that computes to close to 2000# with people and cargo. I'd say that's overloading a 1/2 ton pickup.

As I said earlier, my F150 is pretty close to having its axle limit exceeded when I tow my 1707T. I'd love to know what I could do to improve this situation (if anything). Air shocks, springs, and tires do nothing for the axle itself.

- Jack