Stuck Torsion Axles

[marininn]

Just bought a used '97 22 foot Hi-Lo.
The stench and grossness of people who use black water with no odor control and leave it too long will sour mine a little, but working to get it in good shape.
I had a blow out on the way home, old tires, hoping they would make it, but didnt.
I noticed the arm of the torsion suspension was not dropping very much.
This was originally a FL camper, so there is a bit of rust under, hoping there is metal under the rust.
Do these axles freeze?
I have torsion axles on my other camper with no issues ever so this one is new.
How do I fix?
or
How hard is replacing axles?
and
What would going to a leaf spring do for it all?
I would not mind gaining 4-5 inches of lift if I have to replace the axle…
My understanding is the torsion spring is a metal piece floating in rubber inside the axle, so I do not know how it could freeze.
or
How could I verify that I have full range of motion, really looking for easy tricks rather than the most obvious way.

 

[marininn]

I don't know if this is a good enough picture. The Black tank leaks, so I am reluctant to crawl around under it much.

Seems like the axle arm should drop down more. I do not know how it could be stuck, but worried if it is that I will tear the trailer up, and the tires, with little or no suspension. Roads are bad.

 

[Treeclimber]

Don't know if this helps, but, during bearing re-pack, brake changes, etc, I run the trailer onto a Road Aid and the free tire does not drop but a couple inches at most! During a routine tire or brake inspection, I only note a SMALL drop. The torsion portion really only comes into play when you hit a pothole or speed bump, a small amount of movement. Do you notice any play on the UP side? Just to see, you could put a 2 X 4 under that brake, lift and look for upward play (without disturbing that jack). I also spray a light oil in that area once a year.
Tree

 

[JackandJanet]

My experience is the same as Tree's, marininn. The torsion axle does not drop much at all when the wheel is lifted off the ground.

If you look on Dexter's site (I think, it's been quite a while since I did this), there are different designs of torsion axles. Some of them, like mine are virtually horizontal with no weight on them (like yours seems to be). Mine is like that too.

The important thing is the upward movement it allows. If the axle arm stays nearly horizontal when weight is back on the wheel and there is space above the wheel, then it CAN go up if it hits a bump.

- Jack

 

[marininn]

I wonder what the travel is on these axles is at the hub center.

 

[Treeclimber]

I have no idea. My Dexter axle book never mentioned it.

 

[hilltool]

A few years ago I had "lift" put under my axles , thus lowering them and raising the trailer. Im glad I did. AT the time I was also having uneven wear issues on the tires and had the axle guy inspect the axle for bend. There was some, and he was able to take some of it out. It wasnt inexpensive. That said, my sense is the "flex" is integral to the engineering and design of the axle, much like a steel beam has flex . How that is engineered exactly I cannot say. That said, many of the trailers I now see out there, especially smaller/"lightweight" ones seem to incorporate torsion axles and I assume there is a reason they are preferred over springs.

Rick

 

[marininn]

I had a friend who in the 80s n 90s built trailers and used torsion axles. The other trailer builders hated on him for doing that and said they were weak and fragile, they said to use springs, but he was a military guy, and said the military only used torsion axles. I don't know if thats true or not, but that was his claim to the durability of them. Now all off-road trailers use torsion. 4-wheel independent suspension is better than a rigid axle.
There is no exposed moving parts on torsion axles.

Here is a photo of my right and left rear axle, the view shows the drop in the arm. The right side, with tire, is weighted and sitting normally. The left is unweighted, and the arm is almost in the same position as the weighted arm on the other photo.

The little trailing arm that the hub is attached to should drop completely bottomed out when unweighted, and the weighted one should sit in a neutral position, somewhere in the middle of the travel range.

That my unweighted one is not dropping much is of concern.

[/IMG]

sorry it's fuzzy, but you can se the general shape and position still

 

[JackandJanet]

Marininn - I don't think you've got this quite right. You have a "Trailing Arm" torsion bar axle. The part that you are concerned about is called the "arm". The "torsion" spring is inside the horizontal part of the axle that extends from side to side under the trailer. Essentially, it's just a rod that can twist, which will rotate the arm up and down. It is made of spring steel, which wants to return to it's "untwisted" position anytime force is removed from it.

Now, when you have a tire and wheel mounted on the arm, it applies weight to the arm, which twists the torsion bar and causes that arm to drop somewhat. If you remove the tire and wheel, that weight is removed and the torsion bar returns to its unstressed position, which would be higher.

So, from what you are showing, your axle appears to be functioning as it should.The arm with the tire SHOULD be lower than the one that doesn't have that weight.

Your friend is probably talking about US Army tanks and other tracked vehicles. They DO use torsion arm suspension instead of springs. Torsion bars are a simpler, more robust suspension system.

- Jack

 

[RichR]

I believe the kind of suspension, at least on newer Hi-Lo's, incorporates a highly compressed rubber block that is pushed into the axle housing with the hub end inserted into it. Here is an example explanation of them:https://www.trailerpart.com/c-26-torsion-axles.aspx

 

[JackandJanet]

Thank you Rich - I know there was rubber in it somewhere, but I'd forgotten the exact construction (senior moment). Regardless, marininn, the way it "hangs" and deflects is the way I described it. Notice in the link Rich posted, there are different "starting angles". The "free position" would be with no weight on the arm. The loaded position would be with a wheel on the ground and the trailer weight on it.

- Jack

 

[RichR]

Thank you Rich - I know there was rubber in it somewhere, but I'd forgotten the exact construction (senior moment). Regardless, marininn, the way it "hangs" and deflects is the way I described it. Notice in the link Rich posted, there are different "starting angles". The "free position" would be with no weight on the arm. The loaded position would be with a wheel on the ground and the trailer weight on it.

- Jack

Jack, I know all about senior moments. They occupy most of my time.

 

[marininn]

Thank you all for the efforts. While some want to assure me there is nothing wrong, I will let you know there is and that this could be an issue with your trailer also. Because we typically do not ride in the trailer when towing we do not know what goes on. There could be no suspension and how would you know it?
My tires, the stock size, are within ½ an inch of the fender. I cannot even put my hand between the fender and the tire. The fender does not have any rub marks. This means, at best, I have ½ an inch of wheel travel. With the wheels off the ground, there is not very much difference. Something is very wrong. I will not tow the trailer with broken or stuck suspension, that will only damage the trailer. I assume the axles have "taken a set" and are sagged, and no option to fix these.
Axles I see selling today have either a zero degree starting angle, or between a 22 and 45 degree starting angle. I suspect my axles should have the 22 down angle if I had to choose from the above list. Zero seems to be the ending point or the bottomed out position.
Because of the way these axles are made I guess the only fix is new axles.
I will reach out to the axle manufacturer and see what they say, but Im pricing new axles now.

 

[Bravada]

With the choice of different angles will you be considering different size tires?

 

[marininn]

With the choice of different angles will you be considering different size tires?

I just bought 5 new tires and wheels. That will not be a consideration.
I am looking at 45 degree, but maybe the 22 degree depending on what I can get at the right price. I think I do need some lift over stock to get down the dirt roads, but more lift raises it over the shell of the truck (think mpg's), so tradeoffs will be made.

A 45 will push the tires forward a little, but I am thinking this is not much of an issue.

 

[hilltool]

I found no decrease in mpg with a three inch lift.

 

[marininn]

I am researching if I can put 3500lb axles on this. I would have the 45 deg and looks like the mount is an inch or two thicker, so I will have 5-6 inches of lift over what I have now. Truck and camper are almost level, so camper will be 4-5 inches above truck's camper shell.
The only available axles of today are the 2200 or 3500. 2200 will be right at the max limit or under, so I have to jump up to 3500. Hoping the ride is not too harsh, but I read somewhere that the axles start to work well at 50-60% weight rating, so figure a 4,000lb trailer with 7,000lb axles will be fine. (3,6xxlb trailer dry)
Probably the trailer tongue is the weak link in the chain for weight now, then the physical frame???
If anyone know you can save me a lot of research about my current brakes and hubs fitting a 3500 axle. Could they be the same or do the axles typically go up in hub/axle sizes? I dont want to buy new hubs, drums, brakes on top of axles…
The axle I am looking at takes bearings ID of 1.3775 and 1.0625 for inner and outer bearings. Would these be the same as the Dexter 2500 on the 1997 HILO? Yes, I will have to take hub apart to eventually see, time allowing…

 

[JackandJanet]

I'm pretty sure the brakes and bearings are not interchangeable and you'd need new sets for the 3500# axles. I'm sure someone from Dexter Axle would have the true answer to your question though.

- Jack

 

[marininn]

Would anyone know what the specs are on these 2500# axles?
Are they:

tapered axle and inside bearing has ID
of 1.3775 and outer bearing has ID of 1.0625?
Which would, I assume,
be:
CONE__CUP______ID___OD___WIDTH
L68149 L68111 1.3775" 2.3612" 0.6250"
and
L44649 L44610 1.0625" 1.9800" 0.5600"

 

[hilltool]

For one, I would have NO idea----nor am I actually clear on what cone or cup are referring to. But, power to you!

Second, though, I think somebody said in years past (might have been jack) that they had contacted Dexter and those folks said he could not install a larger ( increased weight rating axle) on his trailer- though I don't recall why it supposedly could not be done. I have always been annoyed that the combined weight rating on two axles was not , at least, equal to the max weight rating on the trailer. So if you can install a bigger axle- why not?? I sure would.

Rick