theoretical towing question

[hilltool]

Problem:

I have an older f150 4x4 with a low GVWR of 6000lb. With 600 lb toungue weight (trailer empty) and me and wife and dog I am probably a little over that when we pull out without supplies, clothes,etc. However-

The trailer is 500 lb under what it is rated for ( 4000 vs 4500) and well under what the truck is rated to pull ( 4000 vs 6600---gcvwr is 11500. )

So, because the truck is rated at 6000 gvwr -when I add, say, 300 lb of gear in the bed I am over ( that is high- but I'm using it as a top number). What is the feasability of loading that 300 lb in the trailer further back enough that I am not adding to tongue weight and, subsequently, not adding to cargo load in truck bed? Yes- I do have a wdh system. It seems like a no-brainer except I am always cautious of not getting too light in the front . I also realize that the whole tongue weight issue is tricky depending on where the axles are located as indicated by jack's issues of having to relocate his axles on his 17 footer.. Any way- any thoughts are appreciated.

Rick

 

[jcurtis95]

I agree with Bubbie. I had weight concerns when we were pulling a very heavy [pin weight] 5th wheel so I added an extra steel spring that actually boosted our 3/4 Ton cargo capacity to a Ton and a half. I would never put that kind of a load on a 3/4 ton but the suspension still has the capability. One drawback to that is a pretty rough ride until we are pulling our HiLo.

Jerry Curtis
2406 T
2000 F250 4x4 7.3L ext cab

 

[C317414]

It's recommended that hitch weight be 10%-15% of the trailer weight. If the trailer has tandem axles it will be more resistant to sway and the hitch weight can be closer to 10%.

I recommend that you go to a public scale and determine actual weights for the truck, trailer, and tongue. Then you can determine if you can safely place weight aft of the trailer axles to reduce the tongue weight.

 

[hilltool]

Truck has heavy duty tires on it. However, I do think that without actually changing "frame" and axles, the actual GVWR stays the same. I'm not totally worried as I used to haul around a 1100lb slide in pop-up camper in the back---but until I buy a newer vehicle it would nice to see if I can solve the problem to some degree. Part of rationale for buying the trailer was eliminating the weight issue in the truck, which, clearly, I did somewhat, but maybe i can tweak this a bit.

I HAVE weighed the truck and tongue etc at scales, which is how I got the figures i am working with. I guess there is nothing to do but try to load more in the trailer to the rear of the axles come next spring and see how it works. Its s WINTER up here in Wisconsin and I just cleared 15 inches of snow off the trailer the other day and I need things to worry about for awhile.

Rick

 

[davidc-HILO]

Don't forget what a WDH does;

 

[hilltool]

Well

A WDH transfers weight, i guess, between front truck axle, rear truck axle, and trailer axles. It will alter weight on back axle and transfer some to front but, that being said, it won't DECREASE total weight (GVWR) on truck except for that for that going back to trailer axles. (Which, by the way, has always worried me a bit as to how much is transfered to the forward trailer axle vs how much to the aft trailer axle) . Not trying to be a wise guy, here, David, but I'm not sure what you were getting at-----or what it is I may be missing. In truth, my total trailer weight and tongue weight calculations were done without the WDH hooked up, so I guess i should probably do that and see what is up.

Rick

 

[davidc-HILO]

Yeah it (basically) transfers weight - but don't over think the problem.

600# tounge weight (if that's what it weighs) + 300# payload in the truck = 900# bars.

If you are planning on always hauling that weight, get 1000# bars... but much higher can cause issues - and is kinda pointless anyways.

WDH takes 500# tounge weight and essentially makes it 1000# capable. All they really do is balance the weight through the length of the vehicle - but loading balanced in the first place is important.

Like the picture shows - you can crank up the bars (not really advisable) and take the weight off the tounge all together and transfering it to the front tires of the tow vehicle and the axles on the trailer... eliminating the rear tires on the tow vehicle all together... I can crank them up enough on mine to the point the van looses traction and spins the tires when you take off... I did it to prove a point to someone who doesn't think WDH were anygood ... LOL

That is NOT the way to fix a problem because you remove traction from the rear tires and then you'll have different issues altogether.

But the calculation for WDH bars is; tounge weight + TV payload = bar rating.

600# + 300# = 900# bars.

*** and if your trailer is towing level - the weight should be transfered equally front axle and rear axle. If it's low on one end or the other - the weight is being tranfered more to the lower end... That's why setting up a WDH should be done properly. etrailer.com has some pretty good setup videos for that.

*** Taking the tounge weight without the bars on is kinda like not having one at all...

 

[C317414]

Strictly speaking a WDH will lower the hitch weight, but it will do so by putting more weight on the forward axle of the tow vehicle. Thus, the effect of a WDH on the gross vehicle weight of the tow vehicle is zero.

Having said that, there should be some effect due to the leveling action of the WDH. By leveling the trailer, the WDH should result in a bit less weight being imparted into the tow vehicle. So, the idea of putting the rig on scales with the WDH attached has merit.

 

[jcurtis95]

Hilltool,

I remember in 1982 when we got our first HiLo that came equipped with WDH. It also had a brochure that showed the Tow Vehicle, which was a front wheel drive car, with its rear tires completely off the ground. The advertisement stated they drove it that way from NYC to the West coast! That made quite an impression.

Jerry Curtis
2406 T

 

[davidc-HILO]

Strictly speaking a WDH will lower the hitch weight, but it will do so by putting more weight on the forward axle of the tow vehicle.

Yes - balancing the weight though the entire length of the vehicle - instead of all the weight being put on one point - the hitch.

Thus, the effect of a WDH on the gross vehicle weight of the tow vehicle is zero.

hmmm - not trying to change GVW... the only way to do that is take weight out or put more in...

***edit - again, you are just re-balancing the weight thoughout the length of the whole setup - truck and trailer...

Having said that, there should be some effect due to the leveling action of the WDH. By leveling the trailer, the WDH should result in a bit less weight being imparted into the tow vehicle. So, the idea of putting the rig on scales with the WDH attached has merit.

Yes - putting the rig on the scale with the WDH hooked up has merit... putting it on the scale WITHOUT the WDH hooked up is just like WEIGHING it without one... OP stated he weighed it without WDH hooked up... so just like not having one.

Correct?

 

[davidc-HILO]

Hilltool,

I remember in 1982 when we got our first HiLo that came equipped with WDH. It also had a brochure that showed the Tow Vehicle, which was a front wheel drive car, with its rear tires completely off the ground. The advertisement stated they drove it that way from NYC to the West coast! That made quite an impression.

Jerry Curtis
2406 T

Just like the picture I posted (not a HiLo) - it's Toronado...

 

[C317414]

David,

Rick's question was a simple one: can he place some load on the back of his trailer to reduce the hitch weight, thus reducing the trailer's contribution to his truck's weight.

The reason that he would want to weigh his setup with the wdh installed is to get the contribution of the leveling of the trailer. By having a trailer level the hitch weight will be a bit less. It may be enough to stay withing the GVWR of his truck. If not, he can load some weight aft of the axle centers on his trailer to further reduce the hitch weight. The limiting factor here will be stability while towing.

1- Weigh the truck alone
2- Weigh the truck only with the trailer hooked up and the wdh adjusted
3- Weigh the whole setup - trailer and truck
4- Subtract 1 from 2 for the hitch weight
5- Subtract 1 from 3 for the trailer wiight
6- If the hitch weight is still excessive (based on the truck's GVWR), determine the % hitch weight. If above 10% he can try loading the trailer aft of the axle centers to bring the hitch weight down.

Note that the weight needed and location can be calculated. It's basically a sum of moments/sum of weights problem.

Raul

 

[hilltool]

Thanks everyone for the discussion- it was what I was looking for.

@David- When I first looked at your picture I couldn't tell what it was other than a boat, a trailer, and a Toronado. It was too small for me to see that the Toronado didn't have tires on the back. When I got it enlarged your point was more succinct.

@RAul- yes, I was basically wondering about being able to "trailer" the weight rather than "haul it" on the truck, regardless of its distribution there.

@Everyone- I initially weighed the truck and trailer last Spring when I first got it to help me estimate appropriate spring bar size. In fact, I had a post going to that end (I did my initial shake down camp-outs without a WDH). In re-reading it I see that I estimated my tongue weight at 520lbs and the trailer , empty, at 4020lbs. Having read the E trailer explanations I understood I had to include the weight of anything loaded in the truck aft of the rear axle. Not having really camped with the trailer at that point I wasnt sure what I would en up carrying and, of course, that amount seemed to increase as the summer went on. Also- I may have taken the advice too literally in as much as anything in the 6.5 foot bed behind the super cab on the Ford probably counts on the rear axle though I try to load the heaviest stuff near the cab. That said- I got 800 lb bars at the time I bought the hitch as I was afraid 1000lb bars might have ended up being too stiff. Still, I was estimating no more than 200 lbs of additional cargo in back. I'm thinking that is where I ended up most times-though I never weighed it and I hadn't figured the weight of a full tank of gas.

So- this Spring I will load her up like we are going somewhere, rig the WDH, and go back to scales------and then work the problem from there. All this information helps me understand the parameters a bit better and I appreciate it. One last clarification- WITH the WDH hooked up, are you saying the hitch weight should, still, be at least 10% ? Raul, I am assuming that is what you were saying. Thanks again, everyone.

Rick

 

[C317414]

One last clarification- WITH the WDH hooked up, are you saying the hitch weight should, still, be at least 10% ? Raul, I am assuming that is what you were saying. Thanks again, everyone.

Rick

Rick,

10% is the recommended minimum hitch weight. This does not guarantee that the rig will be stable at this weight. If you need to go down this low, make sure that you drive it carefully at first to see how stable and sway resistant it is.

I used to pull a conventional travel trailer with a Chevy truck and was in a similar situation as yours. I found that at close to 10% it was OK but not as stable as I wanted it to be. I installed a friction-type anti-sway device and it felt much better. Keep in mind that the anti-sway device should not be used to compensate for instability. It should be used to make it a bit more comfortable and more resistant to upsets by road undulations, large truck wake turbulence, etc.

Raul

 

[RichR]

Rick,

10% is the recommended minimum hitch weight. This does not guarantee that the rig will be stable at this weight. If you need to go down this low, make sure that you drive it carefully at first to see how stable and sway resistant it is.

I used to pull a conventional travel trailer with a Chevy truck and was in a similar situation as yours. I found that at close to 10% it was OK but not as stable as I wanted it to be. I installed a friction-type anti-sway device and it felt much better. Keep in mind that the anti-sway device should not be used to compensate for instability. It should be used to make it a bit more comfortable and more resistant to upsets by road undulations, large truck wake turbulence, etc.

Raul

You made a very good point about the anti-sway device. It is not there to correct an existing sway problem, but rather to help prevent the problem if it arises. You don't know when that will be.

 

[davidc-HILO]

Good points about the sway control... Another good point brought up to me when I was bringing my new one home - Do NOT use the sway control on days like the day I towed it home... Freezing rain and sleet - there is a chance of the sway control freezing and then it becomes a locked bar and you will no longer be able to turn...

With a 6.5 ft bed, most of any weight you put in it is behind the axle, or right over it and should probably be considered behind... No matter how far to the front you put it - most of it will be carried by the rear axle - simply because you can't get close enough to the center of the truck.

And on a 22' trailer - I doubt you could put enough weigh in the back to take much off the tongue without making it handle badly - turning the back end of the trailer into a pendulum.

...You don't have to go to the scales - take measurements of the wheel wells will tell you what is happening.

example - 30" on the front without the trailer 32" with means the front end is becoming lighter - then measure with WDH setup and see what they become... The closer to the original measurement - the better for handling.

Not really "lighter" - but less balanced.

With the measurements you'll know where the weight is being carried.

Front - Rear - Trailer level

 

[TrulyOregon]

Weighing the TV

Just logged on and saw the thread and enjoyed the conversations. Don't think I read this in the thread, but a thought regarding weighing the TV and trailer in various configurations, with the TV and trailer hitched, with the WDH properly set. You do have to weigh each axle of the TV and the trailer to insure that all the axle ratios are adhered to. With more weight thrown on the truck's front axle, it's very easy to exceed the axle ratio. And if you want to be really accurate, you should weigh each tire for each axle to insure the tire's rating isn't exceeded as well. We have a scale station here for trucks hauling crops and it's usually not busy so we have time to weigh everything. It's an interesting process. Have enjoyed everyone's responses.

 

[C317414]

You do have to weigh each axle of the TV and the trailer to insure that all the axle ratios are adhered to.

Good Idea.

In my area there's a Truck stop with a scale that has multiple weighing plates. They are spaced such that most cases it is possible to get axle weights all at once. With my previous TT I got truck and trailer axle weights with and without the weight distributing bars. I also got axle weights on the truck alone.

I plan on doing the same with my new Hi-Lo.


Raul

 

[hilltool]

There is a truck stop not far from my house that I have used to weigh the set-up. A couple of "plates"- but I don't think there is a good way to separate the two axles on the hi-lo. They are so close together I'm not sure I could get each one isolated. That said- last fall I did a trip and and played with the WDH set-up a bit and changed it from what I had. Normally, I had been running it with with just the top link of chain hooked in ---so a full compliment of chain going down to spring bars. BAsed on another thread I put a little bit of "bend" into the bars----so having six or seven links showing rather than more. I did all the measurements etc----but it leveled the truck a hair more. After an hour or two on the road we did a pit stop and I checked tire pressures all around and the pressure on the trailer tires on the front trailer axle had increased by a couple of pounds over the tires on the back trailer axles. My conclusion was MORE force being exerted down the front trailer axle than the back one. It gave me pause, and I went back and let a link out. I may be WAY over thinking this problem--but it made sense to me that as force got tossed back towards the trailer and off the hitch the first place to absorb that force would be the the axle closest to the truck. And, if, as is often recommended, the trailer maintains a slightly lowered profile at the hitch (angled down a tidge) , then I don't know how one would avoid that situation . Just more food for thought for now-----as I can't do much else for another month or so. Everything around here is coated in frozen snow and frozen puddles -----including my hi-lo.

Rick

 

[RichR]

From everything I have seen and read your setup should have, assuming you are using a normal WDH and proper weight rated bars, six chain links in tension and the bars parallel to the ground or the trailer frame. The TV and the trailer should remain level to the ground. The amount of front and back squat on the TV should be close to equal. Having the hitch ball height nearly equal to the trailer hitch height to start with and then adjusting the ball mount angle and chain links should get you to those levels. It may take a few tries of adjustment to get there. You need a good level place to do this and make sure the TV and trailer are perfectly straight, especially if you are setting up a dual cam hitch.

I think if you have the hitch setup correctly the trailer axle weights should be approximately equal.