Prevent water from freezing?

[MooseMan-HILO]

Hi,

I'd like to use our camper during hunting season - it's going to be below freezing at night. Are there any additives to preventing the water from freezing so we can use it for dishes, toilet, sink? Not for drinking - but I would have to flush the tank and be able to use it for drinking the next season.

Thanks!

 

[PaulS-HILO]

no there is no aditives that i know of, I use my Hi-lo in the winter also I leave the cabinet doors open so heat can get in and also leave faucets drip in each sink, have to keep heat on the warmer side though.

 

[JackandJanet]

I'd have to ask, "How cold do you expect it to get? If you use the hot water heater, it won't freeze and, if the interior of the trailer is say, above 50, I can't see the water lines freezing either if you leave cabinet doors open. I doubt you'd really need to leave the faucets dripping either, since they're at "room temp" and should not freeze - that procedure is really for the entry supply line to a home, where it might be exposed to very low temps.

That leave the fresh water tank itself. I'd think if your overnight temps were no lower than about 20, and if the daytime temps got up to say, 50?, you'd be all right. You COULD dump some heated water into the fresh water supply before turning in, which would possibly help.

- Jack

 

[RichR]

It would take a long time of freezing temps to freeze the water tanks with any large quantity of water in them if temps don't stay below 32. The supply lines would be more susceptible to freezing, but doing as Jack said would keep them from freezing.

 

[Rolff]

Didn't freeze this night and we used the furnace sparingly because of battery life. We were at about 7000 feet.

 

[sting32]

This is just my opinion and realistically thinking if I was going to camp in bitter cold I guess:

I know that They make a RV (aka 12v) heat strip (remember waterbeds and that heater pad thingy under the mattress?) Well, that is what I thought it looked like... Youd mount it on top of your fresh tank (well any tanks) to keep it from freezing, I would assume this is for pretty cold conditions like guys above me stated, has to be cold a while to freeze stuff up.

you would probably want to put a switch on it, with a LED light so you could save power during the day, turn on at night? I think the one I looked at has a thermostat built in. I have to use similiar at the farm (not 12v ones) and they are on all the time (lights lighted at least), although I dont know if they draw much power when not heating...

Take into consideration! how long will the battery last running the strip and your funace, plus dark earlier (lights)? If you have a generator or hookups then it is a mute point.

If you are without hookups I'll assume when hunting, you might need to engineer a couple of things. 1st thing I would do, is have more batteries, and this wouldnt have to be permanant, if you even just take batteries with you in Tow Vehicle where you can hook jumper cables ya know. Second, make even a nice cardboard box under the camper to cover the water tank, and while there insulate it maybe with blanket or 2, and mount something to strap it in place. should/could make it easily removable, might even make it out of wood, even as one of those things you "put up" when you get camped.

 

[Rolff]

On my truck bed camper I used that Mylar bubblewrap insulation around the tank. As Sting suggested I have a spare Deep Cycle battery with jumper cables attached in a marine box in my truck. Ever since that cold trip.

 

[robobd]

on your black angray water tanks you can add camper antifreeze to toilet and sink drains so your waste tanks dont slush up and freeze- cheaper than replaceing the tanks!

 

[MooseMan-HILO]

Wow, thanks for your input everyone. I went to Camping World and asked them too - bottom line is that there is no water additive for cold weather camping. I'm not worried about the black and gray tanks, could use antifreeze there. Even if I could insulate the main tank the bigger problem is the pipes, since those are narrow (not a lot of water - i.e. time - to freeze what's in the pipes).

I was wondering about Vodka; but I can't get a clear answer on it (ratios, etc). It would seem it has been used to lower the freezing point of water (not necessarily in RV applications) but I have no idea how well it works.

Well the end result is that I winterized it and if we go hunting-camping the toilet will be outdoors like it used to! At least there will be a place to sleep.

 

[camperD]

Ethyl Alcohol Antifreeze

Mooseman,

You are right, ethyl alcohol can be used as an antifreeze. The info on concentrations vs. freeze points is at:
Ethanol Freeze Protected Water Solutions

Just remember that 80 proof vodka is already 40% vol alcohol. Don't know what temps you want to protect against. But if it is say 5 degrees F, you'd need 30% vol alcohol content. That would be about 3/4 cup water for every cup of 80 proof vodka.

A side benefit is that you could drink the mixture to help keep warm!

Darryl
PS - A chemical engineer in a former life (pre-retirement).

 

[RichR]

If I had that much alcohol in me I wouldn't care if anything froze.

 

[MooseMan-HILO]

Mooseman,
Just remember that 80 proof vodka is already 40% vol alcohol. Don't know what temps you want to protect against. But if it is say 5 degrees F, you'd need 30% vol alcohol content. That would be about 3/4 cup water for every cup of 80 proof vodka.

Lol. So what you're really saying is that moonshine would be more efficient!!

Hey that's good to know. I would probably be targeting about 15-20 degrees at the lowest, and honestly it would only be for nighttime hours and the camper would be radiating a little heat during those hours. During the day it gets into the 30's and 40's and sunny. So maybe one of those $8 1.75L bottles could treat enough water to use the john and wash the hands for a weekend. But not this year since I winterized already

 

[Wyoming-HILO]

Dry Camping in low temps

In 1996 when I purchased my first HiLo the factory rep told me that RV water lines are made to expand. As long as the ground warms up during the day, they should be fine. I accidently found myself out one night when it was 15 degrees. When the ground warmed up the next day, things thawed with no damage. I wouldn't recommend trying that though. I do dry camp when it is in the 20's. I keep propane running the water heater and blue flame heater (which is much better than any RV furnace and doesn't use your batteries) with cabinet doors open. Keep a couple gallons of drinking water inside to use until it warms up during the day. I really think the HiLo may do better with cold weather camping because the bottom is NOT enclosed. Heat from the ground really does work. Yes, the pipes may be frozen early in the day but it doesn't take all day for them to thaw. RV toilets can be used with little to no water.

 

[Paul Van Velzer]

I used Salt in my tank. I works down to zero F. We went to telluride Colorado on a Ski trip.
However the water (Brine) boils at a lower temperature and the water heater relief valve would blow off so you have to turn off the pump and bleed the excess pressure with the faucet. then flush the entire system when you get home.

 

[davidc-HILO]

Mooseman,

You are right, ethyl alcohol can be used as an antifreeze. The info on concentrations vs. freeze points is at:
Ethanol Freeze Protected Water Solutions

Just remember that 80 proof vodka is already 40% vol alcohol. Don't know what temps you want to protect against. But if it is say 5 degrees F, you'd need 30% vol alcohol content. That would be about 3/4 cup water for every cup of 80 proof vodka.

A side benefit is that you could drink the mixture to help keep warm!

Darryl
PS - A chemical engineer in a former life (pre-retirement).

WOW - that's a LOT of alcohol!!! for a fresh water tank...

As far as the heat pads... they will work great - if you have the power... If you are boondocking - not so much.

If it gets above freezing during the day - it probably won't be an issue. The one weak spot in the water system... well two weak spots;

1) Were the line passes behind the fridge. (If it does)

2) Were the water connects to the city water connect (assuming you have hookups)

number 2 is solved by wrapping your hose with alumium foil, taping heat tape or pipe tape which ever you want to call it and then surrounding that with pipe insulation...

Mine has yet to freeze, and I haven't done anything yet... I have the stuff, but it has yet to freeze - even though it has been below freezing several nights...

And as has been said - it takes quite awhile for the tanks to freeze solid...

And the pipe is PEX and is designed to freeze without busting... Not sure how much I would test it though and the weak spots are the "joints" in the system - they don't give...

 

[Papa-HILO]

water freezing

We don't camp in freezing temps since we live in SC and don't normally find ourselves in freezing temps. But once on a trip we found ourselves in a camp ground and the temps were going into freezing conditions.

I have not read all of this thread but would add one concern I had when camping in freezing temps. That was the black and gray water dump valve piping area. I wasn't too concerned for the contents of the black and gray water tanks but the area where the valves are located did concern me. So I put some camper antifreeze in both tanks. Figured it could not hurt and hopefully protected those valves from freezing?
God Bless
Papa

 

[renoites]

I am a plumber and the gray pipes that I have in my hi-lo are not pex, but are quest pipe. Frozen Quest water pipe will split, but mostly will separate the fittings and cause leaks. Pex will not split/burst, but the fittings are still the most likely to cause leaks from freezing.
Pex pipe comes in colors, red-blue-white.
When I camp in cold, I use water from a container in the trailer and do not use the water system or holding tank. It is easier than repairing leaky lines and fittings- and I have the tools!
That's why it is called boondocking!
Put a couple of 98 degree bodies plus a little furnace added and no problem. You are off of the ground and out of the wind and elements. BE HAPPY
If I were to use Vodka in the tank I know what would happen, nothing. I would be happy all day, with nothing done.
Anti-freeze added to the black tank would make the toilet useable. NO FLUSHING, just add water from top, after use, for rinse. Driving in freezing/icy weather will accumulate at drain valves on exterior. Let them thaw and don't try to drain until ice gone.
Just keep driving south until it warms up!!!!!!!!!
steve

 

[JIM L-HILO]

I am a plumber and the gray pipes that I have in my hi-lo are not pex, but are quest pipe. Frozen Quest water pipe will split, but mostly will separate the fittings and cause leaks. Pex will not split/burst, but the fittings are still the most likely to cause leaks from freezing.
Pex pipe comes in colors, red-blue-white.
When I camp in cold, I use water from a container in the trailer and do not use the water system or holding tank. It is easier than repairing leaky lines and fittings- and I have the tools!
That's why it is called boondocking!
Put a couple of 98 degree bodies plus a little furnace added and no problem. You are off of the ground and out of the wind and elements. BE HAPPY
If I were to use Vodka in the tank I know what would happen, nothing. I would be happy all day, with nothing done.
Anti-freeze added to the black tank would make the toilet useable. NO FLUSHING, just add water from top, after use, for rinse. Driving in freezing/icy weather will accumulate at drain valves on exterior. Let them thaw and don't try to drain until ice gone.
Just keep driving south until it warms up!!!!!!!!!
steve

Are you aware that there is a class action law suit against pex now. Seems the fittings are defective. Google, pex pipe, law suit for more info. Like you said, don't let any of it freeze

 

[sam-HILO]

water freezing

I read in another camping forum about using a hairdryer(carefully) to thaw out the frozen exterior drain valves. This way you could dump at the campsite before heading home. One time,can't remember all the details we had to empty into our blue tote and drag it down our cellar stairs and emptyinto our sewer pipe. Not fun on the back!!

 

[Thankful]

I am a plumber and the gray pipes that I have in my hi-lo are not pex, but are quest pipe. Frozen Quest water pipe will split, but mostly will separate the fittings and cause leaks. Pex will not split/burst, but the fittings are still the most likely to cause leaks from freezing.
Pex pipe comes in colors, red-blue-white.
steve

PEX pipe can freeze and split. I had to tear apart a bathroom wall when the PEX pipes froze and split. The home owners heat went off while they were away and the pipes froze. It was the coiled style of PEX and not the stick style that was used. I don't know if that makes any difference.