Replacing the power converter - dimensions

[JackandJanet]

Red and Black are generally "hot" wires (+) in trailer wiring. White is negative. I really can't say, though, how you should connect things since I don't have that converter. All I can tell from your manual is that a wire from +12V Output on the distribution panel needs to go to the positive pole of your battery. It should be a fairly heavy wire. The -12V Output needs to go to the negative pole of the battery and to the negative sides of all other DC items in the trailer. You would connect the heavy wire from the Master Switch to the +12V Input. Now, if the Master Switch wire is Red, it should NOT be connected in any way to the Black wire. I think the Black wire is the battery charging wire and it needs to be connected to +12V Output. It's not clear to me if the "colors" you are referring to are trailer wires or converter wires though.

I would NOT add any inline fuses to any wires.

I kinda think your converter should be wired much the same as mine was in this thread: https://www.hilotrailerforum.com/f28/elixir-converter-replacement-7659/, Post #4.

But, I agree, sam's husband might have better advice for you.

- Jack

 

[Shaihulud2090]

I've studied your post in detail. I've also been looking at your converter's schematics and, I just realized this, where you hookup the charging line (Black 10 gauge wire) to the battery pos/blk post and the red 8 gauge wire to pos/dc (disc), those two posts were jumpered before you connected the red wire which is effectively splicing the the pos/dc post to the pos/black post.

The black wire and the red wire both go back to the battery. The difference is that the black wire goes to the converter on the other side. The red wire goes to the switch on the other side. The black wire provides a continuous circuit from the converter to charge the battery and the switch on the red wire provides power from the converter/battery when switched on.

Still hoping to hear from Sam, though.

 

[JackandJanet]

Yes, and I removed the jumper and attached the red and black trailer wires to different terminals. That separates the red 12V DC supply wire and the black battery charging wire. You do NOT want those two wires connected together, they perform different functions. In my trailer, the heavy red wire supplies current TO the DC fuse bank in the converter, from there, it goes to the various DC appliances. The heavy black wire takes current FROM the converter to the positive post of the battery.

- Jack

 

[Shaihulud2090]

I think I found the solution to my problem. I just need to figure out how to implement it.

In the attached schematic is a terminal I need to find in the trailer. It's circled in red. Can someone point me to its location?


This is where the old converter's positive line connects. It's also where the red #10 line connects. If I can find it, I can try to identify which wire it is. Then I can disconnect the new converter's blue 12v+ wire from the input-12v+ terminal, wire it to that line and connect the red #10 line to that input-12v+ terminal. That should provide the same functionality.

 

[JackandJanet]

You've circled one of the two Circuit Breakers (CBs) that are in the tongue of the trailer. The one you've circled also feeds the lift motor for the tongue jack. In my trailer, that's the front CB. Again, it's in the tongue, on the wall where the battery and lift motor for the trailer top live.

Now, the wire you've colored yellow in your diagram is the wire from the master switch which is the +12V input to your DC distribution panel in your new converter. In my trailer, it is colored red.

I WOULD NOT connect a red trailer wire to the -12V battery post! Red and black are positive wire colors.

- Jack

 

[Shaihulud2090]

Jack, you are awesome!

 

[JackandJanet]

Thanks, I should have added, the wire you've colored red in that diagram is probably my BLACK charging wire that eventually ends up at the battery +12V post. It should be attached to the +12V Output terminal in your converter.

I'm puzzled though, by the schematic you've posted and think it has an error. There appears to be NO wire connected to the right hand terminal of the CB labled "Manual". If that is actually the way it is wired, that CB is doing nothing. Current is not flowing through it.

I think that pair of CBs should be wired much the way I showed in my 4th picture in Post #5 of the link I gave to you in Post #21 of this thread. It looks to me like your Manual CB is my CB #! and the Automatic CB is CB #2. The labels "Manual" and "Automatic" simply refer to the way they are reset if they trip. Mine are both automatic. You would have to push a button to reset your CB #1 if it trips.

- Jack

 

[Shaihulud2090]

The way I'm reading the manual terminal block is that it's carrying the positive charge. The negative post wouldn't necessarily need to be connected.

If we look at the converter in the schematic, there is the ground which should be connected to the DC negative wiring block. Following what should be the positive wire come from the converter it goes to the positive terminal on the labeled manual terminal block.

From there it branches in two directions. First it goes through a #10 blue line that heads off to the left in the schematic to a device abbreviated NAF or NEF. I can't read it and don't know what it is, but it has a ground that is completing a circuit.

Second, it branches off on an unlabeled wire to the middle position of the master switch.

I think the one terminal on the manual terminal block is there just to provide a positive current for two devices: NAF and the master power switch.

I'm looking at it in a few so will know more when I put a tone generator on it to figure out which wire it is at the power panel.

 

[Shaihulud2090]

Ok, here's the theoretical re-wiring.


My goal is to retain the original function of the master power switch which turns off power to the fuse panel.

1. The blue 12V+ wire coming from the converter's 12V+ output is removed from the fuse panel's Input-12V+ terminal and reconnected to the positive post on the manual wiring block.
   
2. The #10 Red wire is connected to the fuse panel's Input-12V+. You will note two red lines in the graphic. The second going from the fuse panel's Input-12V+ to the fuse panel in old schematic is solely for demonstration of the connection as it relates to the old schematic.
   
3. Connect the #10 Black Charge Line to the converter's 12V+ output for continuous power when the trailer is connected to shore power.

What do you think? Is it sound?

 

[Shaihulud2090]

I've toned out the wires. Looks like the terminal block labeled manual has other wires connected to it. It's also jumpered to a second block next to it. I've traced the wires and both of those terminal blocks run off the positive from the battery. I think I can connect the black charge line to the blue line at the panel and that will provide the continuous charging.

The wire that I've been calling #10 red looks like it runs from the panel compartment to the manual terminal block. I toned it out. I'm sure it's the wire connected to the manual terminal block at the battery. However, I pulled out the master switch, but the #10 red wire doesn't directly connect to it. I plan on pulling the seat up at the dining table to see if I can identify it connecting to the master switch. The tone was strong through the master switch, but I'm not 100% sure yet.

 

[JackandJanet]

OK, good. I think the two CBs in your trailer tongue should be connected the same way mine is in my converter replacement thread, either the "incorrect" way or what I determined to be the correct way. I'm glad to see there's a jumper wire between the two and that there are wires to both terminals of both CBs - that makes sense.

Now I think you have the input TO the converter wired correctly in your above picture in this thread. That should be the Master Switch TO the Converter. The right hand red line is an "internal" connection, right?

I'm pretty sure you need to connect the black trailer wire TO the battery (through CBs and other things) to the terminal just to the right of where you have the red connection. Could you possibly post a picture of that area on your converter so I could see where wires would go and what is already wired? It's not clear to me how things connect there. I need to see a clear, closeup of the green circuit board in the converter box that is to the left of the circuit breaker panel.

- Jack

 

[sam-HILO]

Installing converter.

DH was asleep when i read your PM. He read what you posted today and he agreed with all your statements. You are above the average guy with your testing equipment. Jack is a great resource as he is a retired engineer. I commend you in wanting to get the converter wired correctly. DH replaced both converters in the two HiLos we have owned. The originals don't last forever. It is a small $ amount for peace of mind. The first one would dim the lights when the furnace kicked in. The second one was the original and many years old.

 

[Shaihulud2090]

I believe I can unsolder the blue line from the Input-12V+ and splice it to the black charge line. That will run uninterrupted power to the battery when connected to shore power.

Then I can connect the #10 Red line to the Input-12V+. That completes the circuit retaining function of the master switch. This will allow me to turn off power to the fuse block.

I've also included the rear of the panel. You will see the prominent white and red wires. These are both 8 gauge. White is labeled Negative battery charge. Red is labeled Positive battery charge. If I do the above the white wire will need to be connected to the negative wire block I'm installing. The Red wire will become redundant, which I'll cap off.

Sam, thanks for the vote of confidence. This is all out of my depth so I'm having to stretch my basic electrical knowledge. The tone gen comes from the IT work I've done in the past and was instrumental when wiring my 80's home for networking.

Jack I've also edited my new panel/old schematic for clarity.

 

[JackandJanet]

OK, it appears you do NOT have any connections on the front of the circuit board like I had with my PD converter. Instead, you need to connect the trailer wires to the appropriate wires coming out of the back of the converter.

Now, I would NOT unsolder any of the connected wiring on your converter. It should be wired correctly at the factory to accept battery input to the DC fuse distribution panel (+12V input), charge power output to the battery (+12V output) and negative 12V return for both of them (the Battery Negative Connection Output - Gnd). This is a generic connection scheme for ANY travel trailer, HiLo included.

Now, IF the heavy Red wire at the back of the converter is already labeled "Battery Charge", then it should be butt-spliced to the corresponding charging wire in your trailer. If the Blue wire is labeled +12V input, then it should be butt-spliced to the wire coming from the Master Switch. And, I'm guessing the heavy white wire is connected to the "Ground Terminal Bar" and if so, it needs to be butt-spliced to the wire going to the negative battery post.

It looks like the other colored wires all go to the appropriate input wires to the various DC appliances (Water Pump, Fan, Lights, etc.) and they are butt-spliced too. If you have white wires coming from them, they would all be connected to the Ground Terminal Bar in any available hole. All the negative lines can be combined, and they eventually end up at the negative battery terminal.

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to see this. I really thought your converter had connections at/near the front of the circuit board like mine did. I needed the latest picture to understand it better.

- Jack

 

[sam-HILO]

Electrical electronics

DH has studied electrical/electronics in vocational school many years ago. Never was able to get into the electrical union. One time we were able to take advantage of a home repair program. We took the opportunity to up grade our service box to200AMP. DH looked at what the electrician did. Part of it was wrong. He called them up and was able to tell them what parts to bring with them. He has saved a bundle by being able to do many repairs/upgrades. Next season DH needs to change our outside line from 15amp to 30amps. That way i can run the AC in the HiLo while i am packing. He also wants to run a line out to our newly built gazebo. You can never have too much electrical capacity as we keep getting more electronics(DD).

 

[Shaihulud2090]

If I connect the wires as they're available from the panel to the existing trailer wiring, then the #10 red wire has no place to go. The master switch circuit will not be completed. I will not be able to power the hydraulic pump.

If I splice the #10 red wire into the converter's blue wire and then connect the trailer's black charge wire to the panel's red charge line, power will be continuous to the fuse block and will not turn off when the master switch is in the neutral position. This would have the potential to unintentionally run down the battery when not connected to shore power. I'd have to add a switch between the blue wire coming from the converter and where it connects to the panel in order to have that function.

This is the way I see it using the available wiring.

OK, it appears you do NOT have any connections on the front of the circuit board like I had with my PD converter.

Correct. As a replacement for the Elixir 45, given the lack of support from BestConverter, it's not an optimal choice. At this point I wish I would have went with the converter you purchased. But I'm neck deep in it now, so have to deal with what I have.

Randy stated, in my last call with him, that there is no standardization in trailer wiring. When I asked where did the #10 Red wire go on the panel, he had no answer for me. This is why I've been tracing the wiring and why I've come up with the plan I have. It's my hope I can get you to see it because I value your opinion.

While not altering the wiring for the BD1245PC panel is ideal, I don't think it's possible to install the panel without losing functionality without altering the wiring as I've laid out in my previous reply.

 

[JackandJanet]

Randy IS correct in that there is no/little standardization in trailer wiring, except that negative wires seem to be usually colored white.

But, I'm certain you should not modify the converter wiring. That red wire, a heavy gauge one, is set up to SEND charging current to the battery. It should be butt-spliced to whatever wire you have in the tongue that connects ultimately to the (+) battery terminal. It likely goes through one or both of the CBs in there, mine goes into CB #1 at the silver terminal, out via the copper terminal to "Start", which is a "starter motor" (the lift motor) that is then connected to the battery (+) terminal. If you look at the diagram I posted in my converter replacement thread, you'll see that the tow vehicle charge line also connects to the silver terminal on CB #1, out the copper terminal to the lift motor and then to the battery. This is how the battery is charged from either the converter or the tow vehicle. If the converter is not connected to shore power, the red charging wire from it is NOT energized and it does not accept current FROM the battery. (I suspect there might be a relay inside the converter that is open if there is no shore power input).

Now, the trailer wiring always delivers power to the center tap of the Master Switch. If you put that switch to the raise/lower position, it can send that power to the lift motor solenoid, which in turn completes a circuit to the motor that raises the top, or to the lowering valve, which lowers the top. If you put the switch in the Camping position, power is directed to the wire that should be butt-spliced to the +12V blue input wire at your DC fuse distribution panel. This will deliver power to all your DC appliances. Your blue wire is a smaller gauge than the line from the Master Switch, but it shouldn't matter, because I doubt you'll ever have all lights on, the water pump on, the furnace on, the fans on and anything else that is DC powered all at once.

I'm really certain I'm finally giving you correct advice here. I suspect you can try it your way and it won't blow anything up, but I don't think it will work right either. (Kinda like my incorrect connections in my converter thread.)

- Jack

 

[JackandJanet]

Some things I think that cause confusion here are:

1. Our use of the name "Converter" to refer to the whole box that we install. It is really three separate items, that each operate independently:

a. The 120V AC distribution panel - this just sends shore power to the various appliances that need AC power input (including the actual "Converter".

b. The 12V DC distribution panel that gets its power from the battery, through the Master Switch and sends it to the lights, water pump, fans, furnace, etc. It has NO connection to the "Converter".

c. The actual Converter, whose ONLY function is to change 120V AC power to 12V DC power to charge the battery. It does NOT power anything else! It is connected only to shore power and the battery.​

2. Our use of the term "Ground" in electrical circuits. In a trailer, there is only ONE true "Ground" - the bare copper wire that comes in via the shore power cord and connects to the frame of the "Converter" box. Its purpose is to prevent electrical shock in case of an AC wiring fault.

a. The return side of a DC wiring circuit is often called "Ground", but that is incorrect - it should be called "Negative" - it connects to the negative pole of the battery to complete the circuit.

b. In an AC circuit, this "return" line is properly called the "Neutral" wire, to differentiate it from the supply, "Hot" wire.

c. None of the "Negative" or "Neutral" wires are "Ground" wires. Ground wires ultimately go to a metal stake in the ground.​

Sorry if I'm sounding "pedantic" - I think it's important to recognize these terms and to use them correctly to understand how electrical power works in our trailers.

- Jack

 

[Shaihulud2090]

You are not being pedantic. I appreciate your thoroughness.

I understand that the "ground" in the context of DC power is negative.

If I take the blue wire from the converter off the panel at the Input-12V+ terminal and connect it to the charge line it will send positive current to the CB.

From the CB the #10 red wire will pick it up and send it back to the panel when I connect to Input-12V+.

Both the black charge line and the #10 red line have handled these amps before. They're rated between 30 and 40 amps.



Here is the back of the fuse board from the new panel. You'll see that the 8 gauge red wire is connected to OUTPUT-12V+. This sends positive current to charge the battery. However, that power, when connected to shore power is provided by INPUT-12V+. The INPUT-12V+ supplies power to power rail, that vertical bar with the 5 round terminals in the middle of the schematic. The rail then supplies power to the OUTPUT-12V+ and the positive side of the fuses.

In it's original configuration, the OUTPUT-12V+ is the new panel's only connection to the battery.

In the configuration that I'm proposing:

1. Disconnect the converter's blue wire from the INPUT-12V+
2. Connect the blue wire to the black charge wire that runs to the battery
3. Connect the #10 red wire, that connects from the battery, to the INPUT-12V+ terminal on the panel

The circuit is completed. It bypasses the OUTPUT-12V+. However, it's technically the same circuit with the master switch in the middle. When the shore power is disconnected battery power will flow through the #10 Red wire to the INPUT-12V+ terminal energizing the fuse block.

It could be said that this exposes the converter to additional voltage from the battery, but it was always exposed to this voltage from the OUTPUT-12V+ terminal.

I believe the likely worst case scenario is the battery doesn't get charged. The worst, worst case scenario is I blow up the converter and buy the panel you installed

 

[JackandJanet]

Give it a try - I still don't think it will work, but I don't think you're going to hurt anything. If it DOESN'T work, reconnect the blue wire to the back of the circuit board where it's connected now, connect the other end of the blue wire to the Master Switch, and connect the red wire to the battery positive post. (Forget this - see below).

But - now that I look carefully at the back of that circuit board, it looks to me like the red wire is connected to the positive side of all the fuses in the DC distribution panel. If so, that would make IT the +12V INPUT (from the Master Switch, and the blue wire, which doesn't seem to be connected to much of anything, would be the +12V OUTPUT to charge the battery!

Are there any wires coming FROM the actual Converter body that go into the connections above and below the blue wire? If so, THAT IS the battery charging output wire! It doesn't really have to be a particularly heavy wire either, because the output of the converter is less than 8 Amps as I recall.

And, I just looked closer at the front side of that circuit board and see that the blue wire is connected to the left side of the two 30Amp reverse current fuses on the circuit panel. That CONFIRMS (to me) that the blue wire is the battery charging wire - it should go to the battery (+) post.

In my opinion, the circuit board is mislabeled at the two +12V points.

- Jack